>> HELLO,EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR& COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMINGUP.

THE CEASEFIRE BETWEENIRAN AND ISRAEL APPEARS TO BE HOLDINGAS NATO LEADERS AGREE TOTRUMP'S MASSIVE HIKE IN DEFENSE SPENDING.

FORMERCIA DIRECTOR DAVIDPETRAEUS ASSESSES WHAT THIS MEANSFOR THEMIDDLE EAST AND FOR GLOBALSECURITY AND SWEDEN'S FORMER PRIMEMINISTER LOOKS AT THE POLITICAL CHALLENGESIN THE TRUMP ERA ANDFORMER CDCOFFICIAL DR. FIONA HAVERS TELLSWHY SHE QUIT OVER JFK JR. 'S VACCINEPOLICY.

> >>AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLEBY THE ANDERSONFAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD ANDLESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACEKING WEIR.

THE SILVIA A. ANDSIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENTTO FIGHTANTISEMITISM.

THEFAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEYSTRUS.

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THANK YOU.

> >>WELCOME TO PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M NE AMANPOURIN LONDON.

THE CHANGE DONALD TRUMP,THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS AT LEAST FOR NOW.

AFTER YEARSOF DENIGRATING ALLIES AND CALLINGTHEMFREELOADERS THIS IS HOW THE PRESIDENTSAYS HE FEELS AT MOMENTAFTER THEY HUDDLED TO DISCUSS THEIRGREATEST CHALLENGESAND DANGERS.

>> WHEN ICAME HERE, I CAME HERE BECAUSE ITWAS SOMETHING I'M SUPPOSED TO BE DOING,BUT I LEFTHERE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT --DIFFERENTLY.

THEY NEED THE UNITEDSTATES AND WITHOUT THE UNITED STATESIT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE SAME.

I LEFT HERE SAYING THAT THESE PEOPLEREALLY LOVETHEIR COUNTRIES.

IT'S NOT A RIPOFF,AND WE ARE HERETO HELP THEM PROTECT THEIR COUNTRY.

>> WELL, TRUMP DID, THOUGH, GET THEMTOMASSIVELY INCREASE THEIR OWN DEFENSESPENDING FROM A TARGET OF2% GDP TO 5% INANOTHER TEN YEARS.

WHILE THIS SUMMITWAS TAILORED TO APPEASE HIM AND PLEASEHIM,A GREAT DEAL OF HIS PRESS CONFERENCEWAS ONTHE SUCCESS OF THE STRIKES OF THENUCLEAR FACILITIES.

HERE'S HOWTRUMP DESCRIBED THAT.

>> AS YOU KNOW,LAST WEEK THE UNITEDSTATES SUCCESSFULLY CARRIED OUT AMASSIVE PRECISION STRIKEON IRAN'S NUCLEAR ENRICHMENTFACILITY, AND IT WAS VERY, VERY SUCCESSFUL.

IT WAS CALLED OBLITERATION.

NOOTHER MILITARY ON EARTH COULD HAVEDONE IT AND NOWTHIS INCREDIBLE EXERCISE OF AMERICANSTRENGTHHAS PAVED THE WAY FORPEACE WITH A HISTORIC CEASEFIRE AGREEMENTLATE MONDAY ANDWE CALL IT THE 12-DAY WAR.

I SPOKETO A FEW PEOPLE, I GUESS, THAT JUSTSOUNDED LIKE THE RIGHT NAME.

IT WASA 12-DAYWAR, AND WE THINK IT'S OVER.

I DON'TTHINK THEY'RE GOING TO BE GOING BACKAT EACH OTHER.

I DON'T THINK SO.

>> NOW AFTER FURIOUS BACK AND FORTHOVERA LEAKED PENTAGON REPORT SUGGESTINGTHE STRIKESONLY MIDDLE SET BACK THE PROGRAM BYMONTHS AND IT WASINCONCLUSIVE AND HE GOT ANOTHER REPORTSAYING THE U. S. ATTACKONFORDOW HIT THE CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTUREAND ITWAS BADLY DAMAGED.

DAVID PETRAEUS IS JOININGME NOW FROM CALIFORNIA.

GENERALPETRAEUS, HOW ARE YOU?

WELCOME TOTHE PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> I WANTTO ASKYOU ABOUT AN INTERESTING TONE SHIFTFROM PRESIDENT TRUMP ANDNATO BEFORE WE GET TO THE IRAN THING.

YOU MAYHAVE HEARD HIM SAY I CAME HERE BECAUSEI HAD TO,BUT I LEAVE HERE FEELING DIFFERENTLY.

ALL THESE LEADERS THEYLOVE THEIR COUNTRIES.

THEY'RE NOTRIPPING US OFF ANDWE'LL HELP PROTECT THEIR COUNTRIESAND THEN HE SAID ON ARTICLE5 WHICH CAUSED SOME CONTROVERSY ASHE APPEAREDTO EXPLICITLY ENDORSE IT BEFORE.

HESAID WE AREWITH THEM ALL THE WAY.

WHAT DO YOUMAKE OF THIS?

IT'S PROBABLY GOOD NEWS FOR EVERYBODYIF YOUTHINK IT WILL LAST.

>> I THINK IT'SVERY ENCOURAGING.

IT'S WONDERFUL NEWS.

HE'S ACHIEVEDSOMETHING THAT NO OTHER PRESIDENTHASEVER ACHIEVED EVEN THOUGH ALL OFTHOSE REPEATEDLY CHASTISEDTHEIR COUNTERPARTS AND COUNTRIES FORNOT DOINGALL THEY SHOULD FOR THE DEFENSE OFTHEIROWN CONTINENT.

SO THIS IS REALLYENCOURAGING.

I THINK THE LEADERSHIPOF MARK AS THE SECRETARY-GENERAL HAS BEEN VERY IMPRESSIVE FOLLOWINGON THE GREAT LEADERSHIP OFHIS PREDECESSOR, THE NOVEL IDEATO GET TO3.

5% OF GOOD-BYE DP ON DEFENSE ANDRELATED INVESTMENTS IN ROADS ON BRIDGESAND ALL OF THE OTHERINFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS SO NECESSARYFOR PUSHINGFORCES OUT TO EASTERN EUROPE AND THEREAFFIRMATIONOF ARTICLE 5, BUT I NOTE THE MOSTIMPORTANT AFFIRMATIONOF ARTICLE 5, THE COLLECTIVE SELF-DEFENSE COMPONENT OF THE NORTH ATLANTICTREATY IS THAT WE HAVE BOOTS ON THEGROUND IN COUNTRIES THAT ARECONTIGUOUS TO RUSSIA OR EASTERN EUROPE,AND THAT'S REALLYWHAT MATTERS.

AS LONG AS THEY ARETHERE, THAT PRESENCESPEAKS FAR MORE ABOUTOUR INVOLVEMENT RIGHT AWAY IF RUSSIAWERE TO EVERINVADE ONE OF THE NATO COUNTRIES INTHE WAKE OF WHATEVER HAPPENS IN UKRAINE.

>> CAN I ASKYOU, THEN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE TALKEDABOUT THE MADMAN THEORY AND OFTEN APPLIED IT TODONALD TRUMP.

THEYDID WHEN --WHEN FOR INSTANCE, HE SOUGHTTOHAVE THAT SUMMIT AND HE DID WITH THENORTH KOREAN LEADER.

ITDIDN'T COME TO ANYTHING, BUT NONETHELESS,DO YOU THINKTHAT ALL OF THIS --I'M JUST GOING TO SAY IT, MAD MANTHEORY IN ACTION OVERTHE LAST TWO WEEKS ACTUALLY COULDBE A DRAMATIC SUCCESS?

>> I DO, ACTUALLY.

ANDAGAIN, THERE'S A MAD MAN THEORY THATYOU DON'T WANTTO GET IN A FIGHT WITH A MAD MAN,BUT THEN IFYOU GET INTO A CRISIS SITUATION, SOTHISIS PRE-CRISIS DETERRENCE.

YOU WILL SHRINK FROMCREATING THE CRISIS WITH A MAD MANBECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOWWHAT HE WILL DO.

THE THING IS IF YOUGET IN A CRISIS YOU MIGHT DOSOMETHING SOONER FOR FEAR THAT HEWOULD.

THIS IS THE ANGRYMAN THEORY AND HE'S DONE THISVERY EFFECTIVELY.

HE'S EXPRESSED THEIRDISPLEASURE REPEATEDLY.

THEYHAVE CLEARLY TAKEN IT VERY SERIOUSLY.

THERE'S BEEN A LOTOF SOUL SEARCHING IN EUROPE.

I'VEBEEN IN EUROPE MANY, MANYTIMES THIS YEAR.

THEY'RE VERY CONCERNEDABOUT HISRESPONSE AND THEY HAVE TAKEN ACTIONAS A RESULTAND THAT IS GREAT TO SEE.

SO HOWEVERWE GOT TOTHIS JUNCTURE, HAVING BEEN A NATOGUY ASA ONE-STAR, THREE STAR ANDEARLIER, IT'S WONDERFUL TO SEE OUREUROPEANALLIES STEPPING UP IN THE WAY THATTHEY HAVE,TAKING MUCH MORE RESPONSIBILITY PARTICULARLYIN THE CASEOF GERMANY WHICH IS LIKELY TO SPENDAN ADDITIONAL $700 BILLION TO A TRILLIONEUROS JUST IN THE YEARS THAT LIE AHEADAND OBVIOUSLY THAT'STHE BIGGEST ECONOMY IN EUROPE.

SOTHAT MATTERS EVENMORE.

>> WHAT ABOUT OVER IRAN?

BECAUSETHATWAS ALSO SOMETHING THAT WASTELEGRAPHED IN THE ANGRY OR MAD MANMANNER.

>> WELL, IF YOU'RE TALKINGABOUT THEIRANIAN RESPONSE.

I THINK THE WHITEHOUSE GOT IT RIGHT WHEN THEYSAID IT WAS A THEATRICAL RESPONSE.

IRANWARNED QATAR AND QATAR CLOSED THEAIRSPACE IN ADVANCE.

WE ALL HAD, OBVIOUSLY, THEAIR AND BALLISTIC MISSILE DEFENSESALLPOINTED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

ASYMBOLIC NUMBEROF MISSILES WAS THE SAME AS THE BOMBSTHATDROPPED AND PREDICTABLY THEY WEREKNOCKEDDOWN AND DIDN'T CAUSE CASUALTIES TOAMERICAN FORCES.

WHAT IRAN HAD TODO WAS IT HAD TODO SOMETHING TO SAVE FACE, BUT ITDIDN'TWANT TO DO SO MUCH THAT THEY LOSTTHEIR HEAD,THAT WE ACTUALLY RESPONDED BECAUSEOF WHAT THEYDID, AND THAT WAS TRICKY,BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THEY THREADEDTHE NEEDLEAND THAT GAVE THE PRESIDENT THE OPPORTUNITYTO DECLARE A CEASEFIRE.

PRIMEMINISTER NETANYAHU HAD TOACCEPT THAT.

HE, IN FACT, TO BE FAIRANDPRIOR TO THAT ISRAEL WASFREED TOSHARING SUB STAND SKES THAT'S WHATHE SAID.

AND TAKING A DEEP BREATHPROBABLY RELIEVED TO HAVE THIS BECAUSEISRAEL CONTINUED TO POUND THEM FROMTHE AIR GIVEN THATTHE IRANIAN MISSILE DEFENSES HAVEBEENPOSITIVELY DESTROYED.

THEY HAD AIRSUPREMACY, NOT JUST AIR SUPERIORITY.

>> I WANT TOGET TO THE DAY AFTER, QUOTE, UNQUOTE.

YOU HAVE BEEN AWAREOF THIS ALL DAY.

THIS FURIOUS --OF HOW WELL THE STRIKES ACTUALLY DID.

TRUMPSAID THE PRELIMINARY THING THAT WASLEAKED FROM THE PENTAGON ANDTHEN THERE WAS THAT ONE THAT CAMEFROM THE ISRAELIATOMIC ENERGY SAYING THEYHAD DESTROYEDTHE CRITICALINFRASTRUCTURE ATINFRASTRUCTURE AT FORDOW AND HE THINKSIT'SSTILL DOWN THERE AND BURR NED CEMENT.

YOU'RE A FORMER CIA AND AFORMER MILITARY COMMANDER.

WHAT DOYOU THINK ABOUT THIS?

I WANT TO --IN A MINUTE I'M GOINGTOPLAY WHAT EHUDBARAK TOLD ME ABOUT THE POSSIBILITYOF DESTROYING ALL OF THIS, BUT WHATDO YOU MAKE OF THIS EARLYARGUMENTS ABOUT HOW GOOD OR BAD THESTRIKES WERE?

>>WELL, FIRST OF ALL, BOMB DAMAGE ASSESSMENTAND THEBDA PROCESS TAKES TIME, AND YOU HAVETO MINE ALLPOSSIBLE SOURCES OF INTELLIGENCE TOSHAPEA PICTURE AND IT'S STILL EARLY ON,AND I THINK PRESIDENTTRUMPACKNOWLEDGED THAT.

SOME OF HIS OWNOFFICIALS RAISED DOUBT THAT WAS THEHIGHLYENRICHED URANIUM THAT WE BOMBED, WASSOME OF THEM CARTED AWAY?

IS THEREA SECRET SITE?

THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS THATLINGER AFTER THIS, AND ITWILL TAKE TIME TO DETERMINE WHAT THEREAL ANSWER IS.

WHAT I WOULDSAY IS THAT THE OPERATIONS THATISRAELCARRIED OUT WEREABSOLUTELY, EXTRAORDINARY.

INCREDIBLECOMPETENCE AND THE FACT THAT THEYLOST NOT A SINGLE PLANE OR PILOT ORCREW, THEY LOSTA COUPLE OF DRONES ALONG THE WAY,I THINK, BUT THATWAS ABOUT IT AND THE AMERICAN OPERATIONWASEQUALLY MASTERFUL.

AGAIN, I WAS THECOMMANDER OFCENTRAL COMMAND WHEN THEY DESTROYEDTHE ENTIRE NUCLEARCOMPONENT AND ALL OF THE FACILITIESOF IRAN.

WEACTUALLY REHEARSED IT ONE TIME INTHE UNITED STATES.

WHAT WAS DONE HEREWAS VERY, VERY IMPRESSIVE.

125 AIRCRAFT OF ALL DIFFERENT TYPESTOENABLE THIS AND IT APPEARS TO BE VERY,VERYIMPRESSIVE RESULTS.

THAT SAID, NOONE KNOWS, I DON'TTHINK, REALLY WHAT IS INSIDE FORDOWAT THIS POINTIN TIME.

YOU CAN SPECULATE THAT DROPPING12 MASSIVE PENETRATOR, THE VIBRATIONALONE WOULD HEAVILY DAMAGETHE CENTRIFUGES.

WE DON'T KNOW IFALL OF THE HIGHLYENRICHED URANIUM HAS BEEN DESTROYEDOR IF IT COULD BE EVEN GOT TO, ANDSO FORTH.

I TEND TO THINK THAT THISHAS SET THE PROGRAMBACK MASSIVELY.

IT'S HARDTO MEASURE WHETHER THAT'S MANY YEARSOR WHATHAVE YOU.

>> BUT THIS IS AN ENORMOUSLYSUCCESSFUL OP RAEGSZ.

>> THE QUESTION IS THEREAN HEU THAT'S OUT THERE,AND WEAPONS GREAT ANDARE THERE SENT REFUSES IN A POSITIONTHAT THEYCAN DO THAT.

>> I JUST WANT TO STOPYOU FOR A SECOND, HCUSHS,HIGHLYENRICHED URANIUM AND EHUD BARAK TOLDME BEFORE THE U. S. ENTERED AND WHILEISRAELISWERE HITTING WHAT HE THOUGHT WOULDBE THE OPTIMUM RESULT OUT OF THIS.

LET ME JUST PLAY THIS.

>> IT'S NOT A SECRET THAT ISRAELALONE CANNOTDELAY THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM OF IRANBY A SIGNIFICANTTIME PERIOD.

PROBABLY SEVERAL WEEKS,PROBABLY A MONTH,BUT EVEN THE U. S. CANNOT DELAY THEMBY MORE THAN AFEW MONTHS.

>> I FIND THATINTERESTING.

HE SAID EVEN THE U. S. CAN'T DELAY HIM BY MORE THAN A MONTH.

WE JUST DISCUSSED THIS.

WHAT IWANT TO KNOW IS IS IT RELEVANT?

IWANT TO ASK YOU THISBECAUSE DONALD TRUMP IS SAYING ITDOESN'T MATTER.

THEY HAVEBEEN DESTROYED.

OR WHATEVER THE WORDHEUSED, THEY KNOW THIS WAR COULD STARTAGAIN ANDFURTHERMORE, YOU KNOW, POTENTIALLYTHEY'LL COME TO ANAGREEMENT AND SAY THAT THEY'RE NOTGOING TO DOTHIS ANYMORE.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINKIS THE OPTIMUM FORTHE DAY AFTER?

WHAT DO YOU THINK SHOULDHAPPEN NEXT?

>> WELL, THE OPTIMUM,AND BY THE WAY, I KNOW EHUDBARAK WELL.

I HAD GREATRELATIONS WITH HIM WHEN HE HFS WHENHEWAS MINISTER OF DEFENSE TRYING TOGET US TO DO ALL OF THE WAYBACK IN THAT TIME.

I'M NOT GOING TOQUIBBLE WHETHER IT'S AFEW MONTHS OR A FEW YEARS.

ITDEPENDS IS THERE ANY REMAINING HEUAND ANYREMAINING CENTRIFUGES?

WHAT IS RELEVANTHERE, I'MSURE F THEY ARE IDENTIFIED AND FOUNDISRAEL WILL BOMBTHEM IF THAT'S NECESSARY.

THIS ISNOT NECESSARILY OVER.

ISRAEL HAS CHANGED ITS STRATEGIC APPROACHSINCE 10/7 DRAMATICALLY.

THEY WILLNEVERAGAIN ALLOW ATHREAT TO BE BUILT UP NOT JUST ONTHEIR BORDER, BUT ALL THE WAY INTHE REGION ESPECIALLY IF IT'S A REGIMELIKE THISTHAT CONSTANTLY CALLS FOR DEATH TOJEWS ANDDEATH TO AMERICANS.

WHAT'S THE OPTIMUM?

THEOPTIMUMIS E IRANRECOGNIZES THE VULNERABLITY AND ITHAS NOMISSILE DEFENSES LEFT.

THEY CAN'TREPLACE THEM ANY TIME SOON.

THIS IS A RUSSIAN SYSTEM DESTROYED,SO IRAN SAYS OKAY, WE WILL GIVE UPOURENTIRE NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND WEWILL ALLOW THE INTERNATIONALINTERNATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCYTO OVERSEE THE PROCESSOF DISMANTLING AND TO VALIDATE IT,VERIFYIT AND TO GO ANYWHERE AT ANY TIMETHAT THEYWANT TO ENSURE THERE'S NOTHING BEINGHIDDEN SOMEWHERE.

THAT'S THE OPTIMUM.

NOW THEHISTORY OF NEGOTIATION ASYOU KNOWWELL, CHRISTIANE ISTO OBFUSCATE, I SUSPECT THAT THATMAY BEDIFFICULT FOR THEM IF THEY SPENT MILLIONSAND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON THIS QUIXOTICEFFORT THAT HAS BEEN SET BACK VERY,VERYSUBSTANTIALLY WITH ALL OF THE MAINFACILITIES, ATTHE VERY LEAST VERY HEAVILY DAMAGEDIF NOTFULLY DESTROYED.

>> AND DO YOU THINKTHERE COULD BETHE REVERSE THAT THEY HAVE SAVEDSOME CENTRIFUGES, THAT THEY HAVE SAVEDSOMEOF THE HIGHLYENRICHEDU KRAINE RAINURANIUM AND IT COULD BE UNDER GROUND.

NORTH KOREA DID IT AND LOOK WHEREWE ARE TODAY.

>> I THINK WE ARE MUCHLESS SENSITIVE TO WHAT NORTH KOREAWAS DOING.

IT WASA BIT OF A SURPRISE.

THIS WOULD NOTBEA SURPRISE.

I'M CONFIDENT THAT ASSAD,THAT ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE, U. S. INTELLIGENCE WOULD IDENTIFYIFTHERE ARE HEU STOCKPILES TOENRICH THEM TO WEAPONS GRADE AND TRYTO CRAFT ANACTUAL NUCLEAR DEVICE AND THEY WILLDESTROY IT.

>> ITHINK THEIR STRATEGIC APPROACH ISDRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT, AND I'M NOTSURE WE ALL REALIZE JUST HOW SIGNIFICANTTHAT IS.

>> LET ME JUST TURN TO THE OTHER INCREDIBLYIMPORTANT ISSUE, AND THAT IS RUSSIA'SINVASION AND CONTINUED POUNDING OFUKRAINE.

PRESIDENTTRUMP EXPRESSED FRUSTRATION WITHVLADIMIR PUTINAND AT THE SAME TIME, NATO WHICH HADA STRATEGYOF A NEW RUSSIAN THREAT, APPARENTLY,THAT'S BEEN REPLACED.

ITWAS SUPPOSED TO BE ADOPTED AT THESUMMIT, BUT ITWAS SCRAPPED AT WASHINGTON'S INSISTENCE.

SOTHAT, I DON'T KNOW WHY THAT WOULDBE SCRAPPED FROMWASHINGTON, BUT AT THE SAME TIME,PRESIDENT TRUMP DIDMEET WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

BOTHSAID IT WAS AGOOD MEETING AND THERE WAS SOMEWHERETHAT MAYBE, MAYBE PRESIDENT TRUMPWILLCONTINUE SENDINGPATRIOTS AND DEFENSE MISSELS.

>> WHAT DO KWU THINK AND WHAT COULDBE THE BEST SCENARIOFOR YOU TO COME OUT INU RAIN?

LET ME TALK ABOUT WHAT SHOULDBE DONE.

ALL OF THE NATO ALLIES ANDTHE WESTERN COUNTRY AS AND SHARETHE VALUES AND IDEAL, ALL OF THEM,INCLUDING THE U. S. SHOULD DO EVERYTHINGWE CAN EVEN MORE THAN WEHAVE TO TRY TO ENABLE UKRAINETO CHANGE THE DYNAMICS ON THE BATTLEFIELDAND TO GET RUSSIA AND PUTINTO REALIZE THAT HE CANNOT ACHIEVEEVEN INCREMENTALGAINS EVEN AT THE EXTRAORDINARY COSTSTHAT THEY HAVE TAKEN.

A MILLION KILLEDAND WOUNDEDIS ALMOST HARD TO EVEN FATHOMTO APPRECIATE.

THAT'S WHAT SHOULDBEDONE, MORE SANCTIONS.

EUROPEANSSHOULD FINALLY SEIZE THE FROZEN $300BILLIONOF RUSSIAN RESERVES AND GIVE IT TOUKRAINE TOENABLE THEM TO MAKE MORE DRONES ANDKEEP THEIR ELECTRICALINFRASTRUCTURE WORKING AND SO FORTH,AND CERTAINLY, THERE SHOULD BETHE PROVISION OF INTERCEPTORS BY THEUNITED STATES.

ITS ONE OF THE AREASOF REAL CONCERN WITH INDIVIDUALSTHAT I'VE TALKED TO WHO ARE ENGAGEDWITH THE SUPPORT TOUKRAINE FROM THE U. S. AND FROM THEENTIRECOALITION.

SO THAT'S WHAT SHOULDHELP AND UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, YOU'RENOT GOINGTO SEE VLADIMIR PUTIN CHANGE WHICHWOULDTOPPLE ZELENSKYY AND REPLACE HIM WITHA PRO-RUSSIAN FIGURE TOGET MORE CONTROL OF MORETERRITORY AND TO DE-MILITARIZE UKRAINE.

NONEOF WHICH CAN BE ACCEPTABLE TO UKRAINEAND NONEOF WHICH SHOULD BE ACCEPTABLE TOANY OF US IN NATO, MUCH LESS ELSEWHEREINTHE WORLD.

YOU CANNOT REWARD THISKIND OF NAKED AGGRESSION.

>> THATIS THE ISSUE FOR THE PRESIDENTBECAUSE HE SEEMS TO BE VACILLATINGON THISON HIS INSTINCTSAND HOW TO FIX IT AND TALK TO VLADIMIRPUTIN.

WE CAN'T LET YOU GO AFTER THIS BOMBINGOF IRAN.

YOU WERE A COMMANDER IN THEIRAQ WAR THATENDED UP BEING A DEBACLE AS WE ALLKNOW.

>> I DISAGREE WITH YOU.

>> OKAY.

FINE, BUT LET ME ASK YOU--LET ME ASK YOU.

>> WELEFT IN A GOOD POSITION IN 2011 ANDIT WAS ATAN ALL-TIME LOW.

>> OKAY.

THE FRACTURING,THE TERRORISM, THE INSURGENCY, ALLOF THAT.

I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU THOUGHTTHAT IF ISRAELHAD CONTINUED IN IRAN WHETHER THATCOULD HAVEHAPPENED AS WELL, A DISINTEGRATEDCOUNTRY WHICH WAS THE CASEIN IRAQ FOR SEVERAL YEARS AFTER THEWAR,AS YOU WILL ADMIT.

>> WELL, UNTILWE DID THE SEARCHAND THEN WE DROVE VIOLENCE DOWN BY90%?

THAT TOOK A LONG TIME.

>> ITDID.

NO QUESTION.

WE HAD THE BIG IDEASWRONG FOR APERIOD AND WE ALSO DID SOME VERY DISASTROUS,EARLY MISTAKESAND FIRING THE ENTIRE MILITARY.

>>EXACTLY.

>> AND THEDEBATH IF ATHIFICATION, BUT THIS DISPUTEHERE IS THE REGIME CHANGE QUESTION.

FIRST, I FIND IT VERYUNLIKELY THAT THE OPPOSITION WHICHMIGHT BE AS MUCH AS80% OF THE POPULATION COULD EVERFIND A LEADER AND ANORGANIZATION WITH ENOUGH GUNS TO OVERTHROWTHIS FORMIDABLE REGIME, AS YOU KNOW.

SECOND, IF THERE IS REGIME CHANGE,THEN, IT WOULD COME FROM WITHIN.

THERE'SA LOT OF TALKABOUT SCHEMING GOING ON BEHIND THESCENES.

THIS 86 OR 87-YEAR-OLD SUPREME LEADER AND SO FORTH, ISHE PROVIDING THE LEADERSHIP THATWE NEED.

SOME COULD BESLIGHTLY PRAGMATIC, BUT THE FACT ISI THINK IT'SPROBABLY UNLICKLY TO SEE SOMEKIND OF PERSIAN SPRENG HERE THAT WILLOFFER INA JEFFERSONIAN DEMOCRAT ON A WHITEHORSETHAT TOTALLY TRANSFORMS THE COUNTRYIN THE WAYTHAT IT WOULDBE MOREPRAGMATIC AND LESS THREATENING?

GENERALPETRAEUS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FORBEING WITH US?

ALWAYSAPLEASURE, CRISTIANE.

>>THEY INCREASED BY 5%, A MOVE PRESIDENTTRUMP HAS CALLEDA MONUMENTAL WIN FOR THE UNITED STATES,WHILE THERE WASLITTLE FORMAL DISCUSSION OF RUSSIA'SWAR INUKRAINE, TRUMP DID MEET WITH PRESIDENTZELENSKYY ON THESIDELINES AND AFTER WARD BOTH CALLEDIT A GOOD MEETING WITHTHELEADER WRITING ON X THAT AND BY THEWAYNO CAMERAS WERE ALLOWED IN.

TRUMPFIREDA FRUSTRATED DART AT VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> I KNOWONE THING, HE'D LIKE TO SETTLE.

HE'DLIKE TO GET OUT OFTHIS THING.

IT'S A MESS FOR HIM.

HECALLED THE OTHER DAY AND HE SAIDCANI HELP YOU WITH IRAN.

I SAID NO, YOUCAN HELP ME WITH RUSSIA.

>> UKRAINEHAS SUFFERED THERUSSIAN BOMBARDMENTS IN WEEKS ANDHE'S MADEMISSILE AVAILABLE AND LASTING U. S. SUPPORTREMAINS UNCLEAR.

CARL IS THE CURRENTCO-CHAIR OF THE EUROPEANCOUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS AND HE'SJOINING ME FROMCROATIA.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> I CAN START BY ASKING YOUWHAT YOU THINK OF ESSENTIALLY THEWORDS PRESIDENT TRUMPSAID ABOUT THE ALLIANCE, HOW HE CAMETHINKING ONETHING, LEFT FEELING DIFFERENTLY, ANDHOW HE UNDERSTANDS THAT THE LEADERSARE NOT TRYING TORIP OFF THE U. S. AND TRYING TO DEFENDTHEMSELVES AND THE U. S. WOULD HELP THEM PROTECT THEMSELVES.

>> IN THAT PARTICULAR CASEWAS A GOOD MEETING BECAUSE THEY FEARTHEY HAVE A PLAN OF THIS PARTICULARNATURE AND ITWAS TO AVOIDA CATASTROPHE AND MAKING CERTAIN THATTRUMP WAS HAPPY, ANDTHAT SUCCEEDED AND THAT'S AGOOD THING.

AND IT WAS A CRISISTHAT MANY FEARED, SO A PLUS ON THATPARTICULAR EFFECT.

>> ON ARTICLE 5,HE SAID WE'RE ALL INOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I HAVEN'TGOT THE EXACTQUOTE RIGHT NOW.

BECAUSE THERE WASALOTOF STRESS, CARL BILDT, OVER YEARS,WHATWOULD THAT DO TO NATO?

DO YOU THINKTHAT WOULD BE THE END OF NATO?

DOYOU THINK THATNOW HAS BEEN PUT TO REST?

>>NOT NECESSARILY, IF ANYTHINGHAPPENS, WHAT HAPPENS IN THAT PARTICULARSITUATION?

IF THERE IS A RUSSIAN THREATAND KNOWING HOW RUSSIANS ARE TO UKRAINEWHICH SHOULD BETHE FOCUS OF EVEN NATOTHESE DAYS THAT SAY THEY'RE IN ONEOF THE NATO COUNTRIESAND THEN I THINK THE CIRCUMSTANCESON THAT AND OUR PUTIN MANEUVER ISFORTRUMP, AND WE CAN DECIDE WHAT HAPPENS,BUT ITIS GOOD THAT HE SAID WHAT HESAID BECAUSE THAT COULD BE A STOPPINGPOINT FOR DEALINGWITH THAT SITUATION, BUT THERE ISSTILLAN ELEMENT OF UNPREDICTABILITYFOR DONALD TRUMP WHICH IS SOMEWHATUNSETTLING.

>> LET'S JUST TALK AGAIN ABOUTTHE --SORT OF THE ATMOSPHERE AROUNDTHE SUMMIT.

SO THERE WASA LOT OF ATTEMPT TO APPEASE TRUMP,TO PLEASETRUMP, EVEN MARCO RUBIO CALLED ITTHETRUMP SUMMIT.

AND AS YOU KNOW, TRUMPPOSTEDWHAT --I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE IT WASPRIVATE MESSAGES FROMTHE NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL MARKWERTHER TO HIM PRAISING HIM FOR THEIRAN SITUATION INVERY FLATTERING LANGUAGE AND YOU THENWROTE ONX, FLATTERY IS EVIDENTLY THE NEW BONDOF THE ATLANTIC ALLIANCE.

I GUESS IT REPLACED THE MORE OUTDATEDCONCEPTS OF COMMON VALUES AND COMMONTHREAT PERCEPTIONS.

DO YOU WORRY ABOUTTHAT OR IS ITSMART POLITICS FOR THESE LEADERS TONOT WANT TO ANGER TRUMP.

THE FIRST SUMMIT NEARLY CRASHED ANDBURNED.

THEY'VE GOT HIS NUMBERAND THIS IS HOW THEY BEHAVE AND THEYGET HIM TODO THINGS THAT THEY WANT HIM TO DO?

>> WELLIT'S NOT SMART POLITICS.

THEYSHOULDN'T DO IT.

WE HAVE THESE PARTICULARTHINGS ANDYOU DON'T RULE THE WORLD WITHFLATTERY, AND I WOULD HAVELIKED FOR NATO TO HAVE FOCUSED ONWHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO COUNTER THERUSSIAN THREATIN UKRAINE, WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEENDONE TOINCREASE SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE AND BOTHAMERICAN SUPPORTWHICH SEEMS TO BE DECLINING IF I TALKABOUT MILITARY FINANCE SUPPORT INORDER TOBEEF UP THE SUPPORT,BECAUSE THEY'RE DOING THINGS FOR THEDEFENSEOF EUROPE.

FINE.

EXCELLENT.

GOOD.

3.

5, BUT EVERYTHING WILLBE DECIDED BY WHAT HAPPENS WITH UKRAINEINTHE NEXT FEW YEARS AND THAT IS WHERETHEATTENTION SHOULD BE, AND THAT'SWHERE MR. TRUMP HAS BEEN --TO PUTIT INDIPLOMATIC TERMS, SOMEWHAT LESS THANIMPRESSIVE.

>> YOUSAID 3.

5, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY FIVE.

IT'S GONE UP 5%IN TEN YEARS.

>>WELL --IT IS 3.

5 IN DEFENSE SPENDINGAND MILITARY SPENDING TO BE COMPAREDWITH THE TWO ORWHATEVER WE HAVE THESE DAYS, AND INORDER TO PLEASE PRESIDENT TRUMPDEPACK FACTO, THEYADOPTED HIS 5% WHEN HEGOT ELECTED AND HE'SGOING FOR RESILIENCE OR WHATEVER,BUT THAT WILL BETHE DEFINITION OF EXISTINGPUBLIC EXPENDITURE DE FACTO.

YOU TALK ABOUT 3.

5.

THATIS GOOD.

THAT IS ESSENTIAL AND WILLTHEYDELIVER, THAT REMAINS TO BESEEN.

>> I CAN'T DO THEFIVE.

ANYWAY, LET ME ASK YOU THIS,AND IKNOW EUROPEANS WANTYOU TO HAVE A SERIOUS FOCUS ON THERUSSIA THREAT.

AS I ASKED GENERALPETRAEUS, THE MEETINGS DID NOTPUT THE SORTOF RUSSIA BACK CENTER OF THE PAPERWORK AND THEREST OF IT BECAUSE TRUMPMIGHT WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITHRUSSIA, DO YOU THINK THAT --IS THAT OKAY?

DOES IT RAEKENHIS DETERMINATION TO COWNERRUSSIA OR IS IT JUST FOR THE SUMMIT?

>> THINK CLEAR LANGUAGE WOULD HAVEBEEN BETTER, OBVIOUSLY,AND I NOTETHAT RUSSIA AND THE LONG-TERM THREATOF RUSSIA WAS MENTIONED IN THE COMMUNIQUE.

IT WASN'T THERE IN THE BEGINNING ANDTHE AMERICANS DIDN'T WANT ANYTHINGTO DOWITH RUSSIA WHATSOEVER.

I UNDERSTANDTHE TENDENCY OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THEY DIDN'T NEED TO CALLIT AN INVASION.

THEY CALLEDIT AGGRESSION.

THEY WON'T VOTE AGAINSTRUSSIA IN THE EUROPEAN UNION OR UKRAINEWITHTHE UNITED NATIONS AND THEY SAID WENEEDTO NEGOTIATE WITH MR. PUTIN AND FORTHAT,THEY GOTABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN RETURN FROMMR.

PUTIN.

HE REFUSED THE CEASEFIRE, ANDHE HAS INTENSIFIED THEBOMBARDMENT OF KYIV AND THE UKRAINECITIES.

SO ALL OF THESE SOFT PEDDLING ONLANGUAGE AND SOFT PEDDLING ONRUSSIA HAS BEEN PRODUCING ABSOLUTELYNOTHING IN TERMS OFRESULT.

>> EVEN TRUMP EXPRESSEDFRUSTRATION, AS YOU HEARD.

>>FRUSTRATION IS NOT POLICY.

>> I HEARYOU.

YESTERDAY AT THE SUMMIT I SPOKE TOTHECANADIAN PRIME MINISTER MARK CARNEY,AND I ASKED HIM ABOUT THE ISSUE OFU.

S. SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

HERE'S A BITOF THE CONVERSATION.

>> IF THE UNITED STATES WALK AWAYDON'T YOU THINK RUSSIAWILL WIN?

>> NO.

THE SHORT ANSWER,NO.

>> REALLY?

CAN YOU MAKE UP FOR THE WEAPONS?

>>WE CAN'T FULLYMAKE UP, BUT FIRST OFF, I DON'T THINKTHE U. S. IS GOINGTO, QUOTE, WALK AWAY.

>> ARE YOU GOINGTO TRYTO PERSUADE TRUMP TO KEEP SUPPORTINGUKRAINE MILITARILY?

>> YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS ABOUTRULEOF LAW.

IT'S ABOUT TERRITORIALINTEGRITY, IT'S ABOUT SUPPORT FORDEMOCRACY.

>> YOUR REACTION?

THAT'S A PRETTY STRONG COMMENT FROMTHE PRIME MINISTER.

>> NO, ITHINK HE'S CORRECT.

I DON'T THINK THE UNITED STATES ISCOMPLETELY, BUT I THINK IT'S REALISTICTO ANTICIPATE THERE WOULD BE A REDUCTIONIN THE U. S. MILITARY PRESENCE IN EUROPE.

I DON'TSEE ANY PROSPECT OF THE AMERICANSCONTINUETHE MILITARY AND THE FINANCIAL SUPPORTTO UKRAINETHAT HAS BEEN GIVEN.

I DON'TAGREE TO ANY SIGNS OF SANCTIONS SOFAR.

IF PRESIDENT TRUMPIS FRUSTRATED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMPANDPRESIDENT PUTIN, FINE,BUT IT NEEDS TO BE LED TO THE POLICY,AND SO FAR, WE HAVE --TO BE QUITEHONOF, WE'VE SEENPRESIDENTPUTIN BEING FAIRLY SUCCESSFUL IN SENDINGOFF PRESIDENT TRUMP, BENDINGHIS POLICIES AND ADJUSTING HISPOLICIES TO SUIT MORE THE RUSSIANAGENDA OF CONTINUING THEWAR INSTEAD OF A CEASEFIRE.

>> I CANJUST ASKYOU BECAUSE YOU'RE IN CROATIA RIGHTNOW, AND YOU WERE THEREDURING THE BOSNIA WAR, AND YOU WEREA REPRESENTATIVE FOR BOSNIA AFTERTHE WAR, AND YOU KNOW THATON EUROPEAN SOIL THERE WAS A TERRIBLEAGGRESSION, SERBS AGAINST THEBOSNIANS AND UKRAINE IS A MUCH BIGGERTARGET, BUTEVEN NOW, 30 YEARS LATER AND 30YEARS SINCE SRREBRENICA, DOYOU SEE PAIR LELS OF RALLELSOF BOSNIA AND THE POLITICS AND WHAT'SBEING TALKED ABOUTBETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE?

>> NOTREALLY, CHRISTIANE, I MEAN, WHAT HAPPENEDINTHE BALKANS AND ELSEWHERE DURING AFAIRLY LONG PERIOD WAS THEDISSOLUTIONOF YUGOSLAVIA.

IT WAS THE COUNTRIESAND PEOPLES THAT HAD BEEN BUILDINGUP OVER CENTURIES AND INTHE MIDDLE OF THAT, YOU HAVE AGGRESSIONON COMMUNITIES, AND AGGRESSION ONSERBSAND OTHERS AND ANEXCEEDINGLY COMPLICATED SITUATION.

WHAT WE SEE TODAY IS, OF COURSE,THAT BUILDING PEACE AND MAKING THATSTATEMENT, THAT TAKES A VERYLONG TIME, ANDTHE DIPLOMACY OF DIFFERENT SORTS,BUT THE RUSSIAN SITUATIONIS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

THATIS CLEAR-CUT AGGRESSION.

NO SIMILARITIES.

IT'S LIKE HITLER TAKING POLANDIN 1939.

IT'S THE ONLY THING OF THATSORT THAT WE'VE SEEN TRYING TO GETRID OF POLANDBECAUSE HE DIDN'T LIKE POLAND ANDHERE WE HAVE MR. PUTIN INVADING UKRAINE BECAUSE HEDOESN'T LIKE THE EXISTENCE OF AN INDEPENDENTUKRAINE ANDTHEY'RE VERY, VERY DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.

>> CANNY JUST CAN YOUTHAT YOU TREATED AND POSTEDAND, I THINKTHERETHE AMOUNT OF HYPOCRISY AND IN THEWORDSING AND THE DECISION TO STRIKE,BUT I WANT TO ASKYOU ABOUT THE POLITICS ANDTHE DAY AFTER BECAUSE SANCTIONSMIGHT BE ALEVE WAITED.

>> HE SAID WHYSHOULDN'T CHINA REBUILD HIS COUNTRY,AND THEN HE SAIDTHAT U. S. AND IRANIAN NEGOTIATESWOULDMEET AGAIN NEXT WEEK.

HOW DO YOU READTHROUGH ALL OFTHAT AND WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THEBEST OUTCOME FROMTHIS POSSIBLY?

>>WELL, AT THE END OF THE DAY THAT'SGOINGTO TAKE SOME TIME.

WE NEED SOME SORTOF POLITICAL COMBINATION AND WHATEVERYOUCALL IT.

WE HAD THE JCPOA WHICHHAD BECOME SOMETHING.

WE HAD THE NEGOTIATIONIN THE BEGINNINGOF THIS YEAR WHICH STARTED AND ITCOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING FOR THEU.

S. ANDTHE IRANIAN SIDE AND NOW WE ARE INA NEW SITUATION AND IT WILL BE DEPENDENTUPON WHATHAPPENS AS YOU POINTED OUTIN YOUR DISCUSSION WITH WHAT HAPPENSIN IRAN.

WHEN THEYSAY THEY WERE BOMBED BY NUCLEAR WEAPONSAND ITWAS PYONGYANG AND DRAW SOME CONCLUSIONSWITH THAT.

WE DON'T HAVE AN OPTIONAND WE'VESEEN SOME SORTOF A COMBINATION WITH AMERICA ANDWITH ISRAEL AND ACCEPTTHAT, AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT OFVERY CAREFULAND COMPLICATED DIPLOMACY THAT ISNEEDED INORDER TO SEE WHERE THIS HEADS UP.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITHUS.

> >> AND NOW IN THE UNITED STATES THENEW AND CONTROVERSIALCDC VACCINE PANEL HELD ITS FIRST MEETINGTODAY.

HEALTH SECRETARY RFK JR. HAD AXED THE DECADES-OLD ADVISORYPANEL AFTER TELLING CONGRESS DURINGHIS NOMINATION THAT HE NEVERWOULD AND THIS PROMPTED OUR NEXT GUESTTOUP AND QUIT THE CDC.

DR. FIONA HAVERS LED THE AGENCY'SHOSPITALIZATION NETWORK FOR COVID,RSV AND THE FLU,AND AT A TIME WHEN VACCINE UPTICKRATES AREFALLING NATIONWIDE, HAVERS SAID THATLIVESNOW ARE BEING PUT AT RISK.

SHE SPEAKSTOMICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE STAKES FORTHE FUTUREOF AMERICA'S HEALTH.

>> DR. FIONAHAVERS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOININGUS.

>> THANKYOU, MICHEL.

>> DR. HAVERS, ONE OFTHE REASONSWE CAME TO YOU YOU ARE A NOTEDAUTHORITY IN YOUR FIELD.

LET'S ESTABLISHTHAT ANDYOUR FIELD HAS BECOME PROMINENT INRECENT YEARSAS WE ALL KNOW BECAUSE OF THE COVIDVACCINE, YOU KNOW, PANDEMIC ANDYOU ANNOUNCED YOUR RESIGNATION AHEADOF WHATWAS SCHEDULED A MAJORCDC VACCINE ADVISORY MEETING AND THAT'SNOT AN EASYTHING TO DO.

SO CAN YOU WALK US THROUGHTHE DAYS OR THEMOMENTS THAT KIND OF LED YOU TO THATDECISION?

>> SO I RESIGNED MY POSITIONATCDC BASICALLY TO PROTESTRFK JR. 'S CDC POLICY PROCESS ANDTHE EVENTS THAT LED UP TO MYDECISION TO RESIGN.

THE CDC HAS HADA REALLY HARD TIME WITH THIS ADMINISTRATIONINTHE LAST SIX MONTHS AND THIS AGENCYHAS TAKEN A SLEDGEHAMMER TOTHE AGENCY AND PUBLIC HEALTH.

THINGS STARTED HAPPENING THATAFFECTED WHAT I WORK IN WHICH IS PREVENTABLEDISEASES, AND WHAT I SAW HAPPENINGWITHRFK JR. WASUSING GOVERNMENT POWER TO BLOCKACCESS FOR AMERICANS AND SPECIFICALLY,FOR MEIT REALLY STARTED, I THINK, ON MAY20 thWHEN THE FDA --WHEN THEYRELEASED A VIDEO AND AN EDITOR IN"THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE"IN REGARD TOCOVID-19 VACCINATION.

THEY RELEASEDA FRAMEWORK THATWAS BASICALLY INDICATED THATCOVID VACCINES WOULD BE PARED BACKTO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND SOME OFTHATIS OKAY.

THE CDC WAS MOVING IN THATDIRECTION FORCERTAIN GROUP,BUT IN THE INTERVIEW THAT HE PUT UP,HE WAS TALKING ABOUT EVIDENCE ANDPUT UPDATA FROMTHE SYSTEM WITH IRAN CALLED COVIDDAY, ANDPUT UP --FOR 4-YEAR-OLDS.

HE WAS USING EVIDENCE FROM A SYSTEMTHAT I NEVERSAW, BUT USING IT BADLY, AND WITHINTHE TRUTH THEREIS A LOT OFNUANCE THAT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE TRUESCIENCE-BASEDAND EVIDENCE-BASEDAPPROXIMATELY SEE POLICY AND IT WASN'TAS PROBLEMATIC AS WHAT HAPPENED THENEXT WEEK,WHEN RFK JR.

WENT ON XAND ANNOUNCED THAT THEY WERE CHANGINGFORCOVID VACCINES.

NO ONE WAS INVOLVEDIN THAT DECISION ANDTHAT ANNOUNCEMENT AND THE CHANGESHEANNOUNCED COMPLETELY UNDERCUT SCIENCE-BASED PROCESS THE CDC HAS FOR MAKINGOFFICIALCHANGES TO THE CDCRECOMMENDATION, AND THAT WAS JUST--IMEAN, WE WERE ALLAPPALLED, FRANKLY, AND THEN THEREWAS PUSHBACK WITHINCDC LEADERSHIP.

I WAS A PART OF THE CONVERSATIONSDIRECTLY AND IT WHAT WAS OFFICIALLYON THESCHEDULE AS BAD AS WHENRFK JR.

ANNOUNCED VACCINES FOR CHILDREN.

>>WHAT IS ANANALOGY FOR SOMEONETHAT HASN'T THOUGHT ABOUT.

>> THETHING THATHE BLEW UP THE ENTIRE PROCESS.

THESEAREOUTSIDE EXPERTS THAT HAVE CONFLICTSOF INTERESTBEHIND THE SCENES FOR HOURS AND FORTWOHOURS EVERY WEEK AND MADE A DEEP DIVEINTO THE EVIDENCE AND AFTER THEWORKERS FINISHED THEIR WORK THEY TAKEIT TO THEPUBLIC AND THE PUBLIC MEETING THEYPRESENTIT IN A VERY TRANSPARENT WAY TOTHE COMMITTEE.

THAT THOSE PUBLICMEETINGS HAPPEN THREE TIMES AYEAR, THE EVIDENCE IN WHICHANY VACCINERECOMMENDATIONS BASED ON IT AND THENTHE CDCDIRECTOR SIGNS OFF ON THAT WEEK ANDIT BECOMESOFFICIAL CDC POLICY.

SO BY HIM JUST ANNOUNCINGCDC WAS CHANGING RECOMMENDATIONSON X IS AN ENTIRETRANSPARENT, EVIDENCE-BASED POLICY.

>> INYOUR RESIGNATION, MAIL TO COLLEAGUESYOU WROTE, QUOTE,NO LONGER HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT THESEDATA WILLBE USED OBJECTIVELY OR EVALUATEDWITH RIGOR TO MAKE VACCINE POLICYDECISIONS.

IT'S PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD, BUT WHATI'M HEARING FROMYOU IS THIS IS, LIKE, A FOUR-ALARMFIRE TO YOU.

THIS IS NOT --THIS ISNOT,GEE, I DON'T THINK THAT THEY'RE REALLYLISTENING TO ME.

I THINK WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THISIS FOUR-ALARMFIRE TIME.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO ISACTUALLY INFLUENCING THESE DECISIONS.

YOU HAVE NOIDEA WHAT INFORMATION IS INFORMINGTHESE DECISIONS AND IF YOUDON'T MIND MY SAYING, THIS ISN'TSCIENTIFIC LANGUAGE, YOU ARE SCARED.

>> I HONESTLY REALLY AM.

I DIDN'T QUIT AT THAT MOMENT WHENHE MADETHE ANNOUNCEMENT ONX SAYING HE WAS CHANGING IT.

THE MOMENTI KNEW IWOULD RESIGN IS WHENMY COLLEAGUE TOLD ME HE JUST FIREDTHE ENTIRE COMMITTEE.

THATWAS RFK JR.

GOING NUCLEAR ON THECDC AND THE VACCINE POLICY PROCESS.

IT WASAT THAT MOMENT I FELTREALLY GUTTED.

I WAS DONE.

IKNEW THATI COULD NOT STAY AND AT THAT POINTIJUST FELT THAT WHOEVER HE'S PUTTINGIS NOTGOING TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.

THEY'RENOT GOING TOUSE THE EVIDENCE THAT WE SPENT OURCAREERSPUTTING TOGETHER TO MAKE INFORMEDDECISIONS,AND I DID NOT FEEL LIKEAS A SCIENTIST,AS A PHYSICIAN WITHINTEGRITY THAT I COULD BE A PART OFTHE PROCESS.

>> HE FIRED ALL 17MEMBERS OF THE CDC'S ADVISORY PANELAND ON JUNE9th WHEN HE ANNOUNCED THIS, HE SAIDTODAYWE ARE PRIORITIZING THE RESTORATIONOFPUBLIC TRUST ABOVE ANY SPECIFIC PROOR ANTI-VACCINE AGENDA.

HOW DO YOUHEARTHAT FRAMING?

>>RFK JR. HAS BEEN MOVING FIGURESFOR DECADES UNDERMINING PUBLIC TRUSTINTHISPROCESS.

IT WAS A VERY VIGOROUS, VERYTRANSPARENT PROCESS.

I WILL ALSO SAY,ME PERSONALLY, I'VENEVER HAD TIES,AND I HAVENO CON FLICKS OF FLICTS OFINTEREST HERE AND THAT IS WHATMOTIVATES ME.

PREVENTING PEOPLEDYING UNNECESSARILY ISMY MOTIVATION.

I KNOW PEOPLEFIRED PERSONALLY AS WELL AND THEY'REPEOPLEWITH INTEGRITY AND FOR HIM TO JUSTKEEP SAYING THAT CDC IS CONFLICTED.

THIS GROUPIS CONFLICTED AND THEY HAVE OTHERINTERESTS OTHER THAN PUBLIC HEALTHGOOD ISREALLY HARD TO HEAR ESPECIALLY WHENHE'SBEEN ONE OF THE MAIN VOICES FORUNDERMINING PUBLIC TRUST IN VACCINESAND IN CDC.

>> AND I CAN SAY THAT THERE HAS BEENOTHER REPORTING THAT INDICATES THATSOME OF THE INSTANCES THATHE CITED OF SO-CALLED CONFLICTS OF INTEREST FORCLERICAL ERRORS OR CODING ERRORS ANDFILLINGOUT THE FORMS.

THERE ISAMPLE EVIDENCE THAT AS YOU SAID, THEMEMBERS OFTHIS PANEL HAVE BEEN VETTED FOR CONFLICTS.

>>I WILL SAY, I WAS AWORKER --I WAS A WORKER WITH VACCINESBEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND I'VE BEENIN MEETINGSWHERE WORKER MEMBERS --GOT NEWGRANDS ORTHEY DIDN'TAPPEAR, AND WHERE THEYHAVE A SIMPLE SEARCHCOMING IN.

AND IT IS SUCH AVIGOROUS PROCESS AND THE CDC HAS BEENVERY CAREFUL IN MAKING IT MORE VIGOROUSOVER THELAST TWO DECADES BECAUSE I UNDERSTANDTHAT IT'S VERY IMPORTANT AND DEPENDINGON WHAT THECDC SAYS.

>> BY CONTRAST, SOME OFTHE NEWAPPOINTEES THAT KENNEDY ANNOUNCEDHAVEA HISTORY OF VACCINE SKEPTICISM.

DOESTHIS SPEAKTHIS SPEAK TO A LARGER BATTLE THATSEEMS TO BE SORTOF PLAYING OUT HERE?

I'M WONDERINGWHAT IS THEORIGIN OF IT?

IS THE IDEA THAT CREDENTIALSAS WE HAVEUNDERSTOOD THEM, RELEVANTEXPERIENCE AS WE HAVE UNDERSTOOD IT,RELEVANTAUTHORITY IS NO LONGER RELEVANT INTHE CURRENTERA AND SOMETHING ELSE IS?

>> I DOTHINKTHAT THERE IS ALARGER CONVERSATION GOING ON ANDEXPERTISE, BUT I WOULD SAY TO BRINGIT BACK TOTHE VACCINEPOLICY PART, RFK JR. , HIS POSITIONSARE WELL KNOWN AND NOW WHAT HE'S DOINGISPOTENTIALLY AFFECTING INSURANCE COVERAGEAND ACCESSTO VACCINES FOR AMERICANS.

THE REASONWHY THIS PROCESS IS SOIMPORTANT AND WHY THE CDC ANDIMMUNIZATION SCHEDULE MATTERS IS BECAUSEIT IS OFFICIALLY ONTHE CDC SCHEDULE INSURANCE BYLAW HAS TO COVER IT.

SO IFHE IS MAKINGCHANGES, AND HE HAS OTHER PEOPLE NOWCONTROLLING THIS PROCESS, IFTHEY REMOVE AND IF THEY CHANGE THERECOMMENDATIONS ANDREMOVE VACCINES PEOPLE ARE NOT ABLETO GET THEIRVACCINES COVERED BY INSURANCE EVENIF THEY WERE ABLE TOGET THEM.

THE NCOP IS CRITICAL BECAUSEIT DETERMINES WHAT'S ONTHE VACCINE FOR THE CHILDREN'S PROGRAM,WHICH IS AFEDERAL PROGRAM THAT PROVIDES FORMILLIONS OFCHILDREN ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND NOWIF THEYARE STARTING TO --IF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CURRENTLY NOWMOVING ON INTHECOMMUNITY, I'M SORRY -- >>SO WHAT I THINK I HEAR YOU SAYINGEVEN IFSECRETARY KENNEDY SAYS HE'S NOT TRYINGTO PUSH THECOUNTRY OR PARENT, SPECIFICALLY, INONE DIRECTION OR ANOTHER THAT EFFECTIVELY,RESULTSARE PUSHING THEM IN ONE DIRECTIONOR ANOTHER BECAUSEPEOPLEMIGHT NOTBE ABLE TO GET INSURANCE COVERAGEFOR VACCINES THAT THEY CONSIDER CRITICALAND PEOPLE THAT AREUNDERRESOURCED MAY NOT HAVEACCESS IF THEY CAN'T PAY OUT OFPOCKET, THEY WON'T HAVE ACCESS.

>>EXACTLY.

IT WILL GET WAYMORE CONFUSING FOR HEALTH CARE PROVIDERSAND PATIENTSIF THE CDC IMMUNIZATION SCHEDULE ISNO LONGER RELIABLEABLE AND BASEDON SCIENCE.

BECAUSE ALSO PART OF THEPROCESS THAT I DIDN'TREACH, IS THATTHE PROFESSIONAL SOCIETYENDORSED YOU WITH THE AMERICANACADEMY OFMINNEAPOLISAND INSTEAD --ANDIT'S A MENINGOCOCCALVACCINE, AND I KNOW THAT'S INFORMATION,AND IF THAT CHANGESIT'S GOING TO BE ALOT HARDER FOR CLINICIANS TO KNOWWHATTHEY SHOULD GET.

AND IF THEY WANTA VACCINE THEY MAY NOT HAVEACCESS TO IT.

>> ARE THERE ANY DISEASESOR ANY PARTICULAR POPULATIONS THATYOU ARE PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT?

>>I THINK THAT THISIS A FIVE-ALARM FIRE.

TWO CHILDRENHAVE DIEDFROM MEASLES SINCERFK JR.

TOOK OVER AS HHSSECRETARY.

ME OTHER AND PEDIATRICIANSI KNOWARE WORRIED ABOUT THOSEOUTBREAKS ANDPERTUSSIS AND WHOOPING COUGH IS ANOUTBREAK, AND WE WORKED ONPERTUSSIS AND WE'LL SEE MORE BABIESDIEIF THIS HAPPENS.

THE POPULATION AND I TAKE CARE OFALOT OF OLDER ADULTS ANDINFLUENZAAFFECTS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF AMERICANSEVERY SINGLE YEARAND OLDER ADULTS.

I THINK IF THEREISINCREASED CONFUSION ABOUT THEVALUE ORWHICH --VACCINES AND OTHER ADULTSAND IF THEY CAN'T GETTHE FLU SHOTOR COVID SHOT AND THEY ALSO ADOPTTHE POPULATION.

SO ITHINK, I MEAN, THE SITUATIONCAN GET REALLY BAD ANDYOU'LL HAVE TO WORRYABOUT IT.

IT IS VERY, VERY SCARY.

>> ITIS SCARY TO THINK ABOUT IF YOU THINKTHAT THE DEATHS STARTTO INCREASE PRESUMABLY THAT WOULDCREATE SOMEPUBLIC PRESSURE TORETHINK THIS, BUT ALSO THE QUESTIONI HAVE SINCEYOU'RE WORRIED IS THE DATA COLLECTIONAND ANALYSIS PROCESSESARE BEING CORRUPTED, WILL WE EVENKNOW EXCEPT BY WORD OF MOUTH?

>>CURRENTLY, THE DATA COLLECTION PROCESSESANDCDC AND THE PROCESSES WERE THE SYSTEMSLIKE THE ONES THAT WERE OVERSIZEDTHAT ARECOLLECTING DATA AND TRACKING HOW MUCHIS OUT THERE.

THOSE HAVE NOT YET BEEN CORRECTEDAND I HAVE NO REASON TOTHINK THAT.

SO THE DATA COMING OUTOF CDCIS STILL VALUABLE.

IT SHOWS THEPEOPLE MAKING DECISIONS ANDTHE POLICY COMING OUT OFTHATDAYA,I'M JUST SCHEDULEDTOPRESENT AND ONE OF MOO MY COLLEAGUESWILLBE GIVEN THOSE TALKS.

IF THEY AREPRESENTED BYCAREER CDC FOLKS, THEYARE TRUSTWORTHY AND THEY'RE GREAT.

THEY'RE HEROES.

IFTHEY ARE NON-CDCPEOPLE PRESENTING DATA I WOULDBE MORE CONCERNED ABOUTTHAT, BUT I THINK, YOUKNOW, I SPECIFIC LEIGH RESIGNED BECAUSEOF VACCINEPOLICY, UT I THINK PUBLIC HEALTH ISUNDERATTACK AND THE BASIC CORE FUNCTIONSOFTHE CDC WITH TRACKING THE HEALTHOF AMERICA AND THE DISEASES OUT THEREAND HOW MANY ARE DYINGAND WHAT ARE THE RISK FACTORS ANDTHOSE ARE ALL INDANGER IF THISADMINISTRATION CONTINUES TOUNDERMINE PUBLIC HEALTH KRTCDC.

>> ONLY13% OF ADOLESCENTS WERE VACCINEEIGHTEDAGAINSTTHEHPV, THIS PRE-DATES SECRETARY KENNEDYANDIT PRE-DATES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

IT SEEMS TOME THAT THERE'S THIS SKEPTICISM WASBREWING BEFORE THEY ARRIVED AT THESEAGENCY, AND I JUST WONDERED IF YOUHAVE A THEORY ABOUTWHY THATIS?

>> VACCINE SKEPTICISM HAS BEENINCREASING FOR THE LAST SEVERALDECADES.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT THE PEOPLEAT THE CDCARE VERY WELLAWARE OF.

IT'S BEENONE OF THE LOUDEST VOICES AND NOWHE'S IN A POSITION OFGOVERNMENT POWER AND USING THATTO FURTHER SPREAD MISINFORMATION.

YOU MENTIONED THE VACCINE AND THISIS NOT AN AREA OF EXPERTISE THAT IHAVE, BUTI DO KNOW THAT IT'S ONE OF THE HUGEPUBLIC HEALTH WINS.

THIS IS A VACCINETHAT PREVENTSCERVICAL CANCER, AND IF GIRLSAREN'T VACCINATED AND THAT GIVESTHEM A POTENTIAL RISK OFCERVICAL CANCER THAN HAD THEY BEENVACCINATEDAND TO SEEVACCINATION RATESDROP THROUGH --TO PREVENT YOUR DAUGHTERDYINGFROM CANCER LATER,IT HURTS THAT THIS MISINFORMATIONIS OUT THERE BECAUSE IT ISCOSTING LIVES.

>> WHAT MESSAGE DOYOU WANT PEOPLE TO DRAW FROM THISCONVERSATION?

>> TRANCEPARENT, SCIENCE-BASED EVIDENCE-BASEDPOLICY, AND PEOPLE ARE WORKING VERYHARD TO HAVEGOOD EVIDENCE-BASED RECOMMENDATIONSAND WORKING WITH ALLOF OUR PARTNERS, CROSS PUBLICHEALTH TODO THIS.

RFK JR. HAS TAKEN A SLEDGEHAM TORETHIS PROCESS AND USING THESE POSITIONSTO DISRUPTIT, AND IF WEDON'T WANT THIS BACK,MORE AMERICANS WILL DIE FROM PREVENTABLEDEATHSAND HONESTLY, IT'S VERY SCARY ANDPEOPLE SHOULDBE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

>> DR. FIONA HAVERS, THANK YOUFOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOUVERY MUCH.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>>FINALLY, I STILL BELIEVE IN SPITEOF EVERYTHING THAT PEOPLE ARE TRULYGOODAT HEART.

THESE ARE THE POWERFUL WORDSOF ANNE FRANK WHOSE WORLD-FAMOUSDIARY WAS PUBLISHED IN1947, TWO YEARS FOLLOWING HER DEATHAT THECONCENTRATION CAMP AT ONLY 15 YEARSOLD,NOW HER FIRSTHAND TESTIMONY IS ONEOF THEMOST READ BOOKS WHICH CHRONICLES HEREXPERIENCE OF HIDING INTHE SECRET ANNEX OF A HOUSE IN AMSTERDAM.

ANOTHER JEWISH TEENAGER WHOWAS FORCED INTOHIDING IS SELMA VAN DE PAIR WHO BECAMEARESISTANCE FIGHTER ANDHOLOCAUST SURVIVOR.

I SAT DOWN WITHHER IN 2021 AND SHEWAS NEARLY 99 AND I HEARD HER STORYOF HOPEAND PERSEVERANCE.

>> YOU SAID THATTO SURVIVE YOUHAVE TO MAINTAIN HOPE.

>> YEAH.

>>YOU HAVE TO DOYOUR BEST TO SURVIVE.

IT FEELSDIFFICULT SOMETIMES.

I WAS BEATENONCE,UNCONSCIOUS.

>> WOW.

>> I COULDN'TGET OFF THELOO BECAUSE MY TUMMY WAS ALWAYS UPSETBECAUSE OF THE FOOD AND THE DRINKAND WE GOT HARDLY ANYTHING.

>>WHEN YOU CAME OUT YOU REALIZEDEVENTUALLY THAT YOUR MOTHER HAD NOTSURVIVED, YOUR FATHER HAD NOTAND NOR HAD YOUR YOUNGER SISTER.

TWOOLDER BROTHERS HAD AND THEY'D COMEHERE TO ENGLAND.

HOW DID YOU RECONCILE, HOW DID YOUPROCESS THEIR LOSS?

>> WELL,I HAVEN'T RECONCILED IT AT ALL.

ITHINK OF THEMEVERY DAY, EVERY NIGHT, SMALLTHINGS HAPPEN, AND WHENI SLICE MY BREAD IN THE MORNING FORBREAKFAST AND IHAVE MY SLICE OF BREAD I THINKOF MY MOTHER WHEN SHEBOUGHT BREAD.

I CAN'T HELP IT.

ITCOMESINTO MY MIND.

I TRY NOT TOBECAUSE I SAY TO MYSELF IT DOESN'TMAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.

YOU CAN'TMAKE IT UNDONE, BUT I CAN'T HELP IT.

I THINK OF THEM EVERY DAY IN THATWAY.

>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAMTONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TOFIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT,SIGN UP FOROUR NEWSLETTER ATPBS.

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THANK FOR WATCHING ANDGOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.